# Can I opt for Presumptive taxation 44AD in this case
**URL:** https://tradingqna.com/t/can-i-opt-for-presumptive-taxation-44ad-in-this-case/146698
**Category:** Taxation
**Created:** [May 5, 2023, 2:20am UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/can-i-opt-for-presumptive-taxation-44ad-in-this-case/146698 "2023-05-05T02:20:05Z")
**Posts on this page:** 12
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@curiousvi](https://tradingqna.com/u/curiousvi)
#### Post date: [July 10, 2024, 10:44pm UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/can-i-opt-for-presumptive-taxation-44ad-in-this-case/146698/41 "2024-07-10T22:44:53Z")
Here is what I found - sharing for everyone’s reference
> **[Instructions\_ITR4\_AY2021\_22.pdf](https://www.incometax.gov.in/iec/foportal/sites/default/files/2021-05/Instructions_ITR4_AY2021_22.pdf)**
>
> 486.40 KB
check item by item instruction and check E2
I have a question -
if I choose no account case - can I avoid declaring presumptive income?
NO account case means - no books maintained ? so it is same as presumptive income 44AD?
@Jason_Castelino
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### Author:  [@Quicko](https://tradingqna.com/u/Quicko)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2024, 12:07pm UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/can-i-opt-for-presumptive-taxation-44ad-in-this-case/146698/42 "2024-07-12T12:07:45Z")
Hey @curiousvi,
Yes, no accounts case can be opted if the turnover is below ₹25L and profits are less than ₹2.5L.
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### Author:  [@curiousvi](https://tradingqna.com/u/curiousvi)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2024, 12:11pm UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/can-i-opt-for-presumptive-taxation-44ad-in-this-case/146698/43 "2024-07-12T12:11:19Z")
> [@Quicko](#):
>
> no accounts case can be opted if the turnover is below ₹25L and profits are less than ₹2.5L.
Thanks - so if business turnover (FNO income) is more than 25L and/or profits are more than 2.5L than you must either choose presumptive route or have an audit correct?
I meant to confirm if either any of the following 2 conditions
1.More than 25L turnover
2. More than 2.5L profit - are met than one can not choose no account case correct?
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### Author:  [@curiousvi](https://tradingqna.com/u/curiousvi)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2024, 12:05am UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/can-i-opt-for-presumptive-taxation-44ad-in-this-case/146698/44 "2024-07-14T00:05:52Z")
I checked presumptive income section - I could not find any sub section for speculative activity (intraday trading ) loss - so how do we mention loss if we choose presumptive income (and not choosing ‘no account case’ because either turnover is more than 25 lack or income is more than 2.5 lac as you advised)
Should I guess you combine both speculative(intraday) and non-speculative (fno) turnover and combine both profit and loss to come to gross profit?
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### Author:  [@Quicko](https://tradingqna.com/u/Quicko)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2024, 7:12am UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/can-i-opt-for-presumptive-taxation-44ad-in-this-case/146698/45 "2024-07-14T07:12:59Z")
Hey @curiousvi,
Here’s a blog that will answer most of your doubts: [FY23-24: Step-by-step guide on filing tax return for traders – Z-Connect by Zerodha](https://zerodha.com/z-connect/varsity/fy23-24-step-by-step-guide-on-filing-tax-return-for-traders)
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### Author:  [@curiousvi](https://tradingqna.com/u/curiousvi)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2024, 11:43am UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/can-i-opt-for-presumptive-taxation-44ad-in-this-case/146698/46 "2024-07-14T11:43:11Z")
Lol - are you tired of responding to my questions?
The link you suggested does not answer my question.
So if you dont have time to respond - just say it clearly and straight forward so I can spend time on other tax related forums.
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### Author:  [@Quicko](https://tradingqna.com/u/Quicko)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2024, 1:21pm UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/can-i-opt-for-presumptive-taxation-44ad-in-this-case/146698/47 "2024-07-14T13:21:58Z")
Hi @curiousvi,
There are 3 different ways to report your business income.
1. As normal business, where you also maintain books of accounts.
2. Under no accounts case, if your turnover is below ₹25L and profits less than ₹2.5L.
3. Under presumptive scheme, if turnover is below 3Cr. This is only recommended when us business is unable to maintain books of accounts.
> [@curiousvi](#):
>
> so if business turnover (FNO income) is more than 25L and/or profits are more than 2.5L than you must either choose presumptive route or have an audit correct?
A tax audit for F&O trading only comes to picture if your turnover exceeds ₹10Cr.
> [@curiousvi](#):
>
> I checked presumptive income section - I could not find any sub section for speculative activity (intraday trading ) loss - so how do we mention loss if we choose presumptive income (and not choosing ‘no account case’ because either turnover is more than 25 lack or income is more than 2.5 lac as you advised)
You can’t report loss under presumptive scheme. For intraday trading and its reporting, you can refer to step 6 of the above blog.
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### Author:  [@curiousvi](https://tradingqna.com/u/curiousvi)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2024, 1:49pm UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/can-i-opt-for-presumptive-taxation-44ad-in-this-case/146698/48 "2024-07-14T13:49:01Z")
Intraday loss/profit(speculative activity) does not fall under presumptive income correct? because presumptive income is only meant for non-speculative business income?
So as you advised on no. 6 of the above blog - intraday loss should be reported separately from presumptive income section and under no account case ?(turnover is less than 25 lakh for this intraday activity) However total turnover for all business is more than 25 lac.
I checked your blog - [Set Off and Carry Forward of Losses under Income Tax - Learn by Quicko](https://learn.quicko.com/set-off-carry-forward-loss-income-tax)
Here you say - **under new tax regime** - 'In the case of a [business income](https://learn.quicko.com/income-from-business-and-profession), an individual/ HUF **cannot** set off the brought forward business loss or unabsorbed depreciation. Further, they cannot carry forward these B&P losses and unabsorbed depreciation if they relate to deductions/exemptions withdrawn under [_clause (i)_ of sub-section (2) of section 115BAC](https://learn.quicko.com/section-115bac-of-income-tax-act-1961).
Here it is little confusing - you say business income can not be set off and can not be carry forward - but FNO income is considered business income correct ? so why you say business income can’t set off or carry forward?
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### Author:  [@curiousvi](https://tradingqna.com/u/curiousvi)
#### Post date: [July 16, 2024, 3:04am UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/can-i-opt-for-presumptive-taxation-44ad-in-this-case/146698/49 "2024-07-16T03:04:22Z")
@Quicko - This is my last question/s
So waiting for your response.
I repeat - how do I report intraday loss ? Under which heading? I know where/how to file presumptive income for FNO trading - but what about intraday (speculative loss)?
Further can you confirm if we switch to new regime FNO trading (non speculative income) as well as intraday trading loss (STCG/LTCG loss) - which is accumulated till now - can be carried forward like old regime ? @Jason_Castelino @
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### Author:  [@Chirag1](https://tradingqna.com/u/Chirag1)
#### Post date: [July 22, 2024, 8:28am UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/can-i-opt-for-presumptive-taxation-44ad-in-this-case/146698/50 "2024-07-22T08:28:51Z")
While it is very convenient to opt for 44AD, fyi for clauses of continuing / discontinuing the same.
[If I opt for presumptive taxation, do I have to continue with presumptive for the next 5 years? - Taxation - Trading Q&A by Zerodha - All your queries on trading and markets answered (tradingqna.com)](https://tradingqna.com/t/if-i-opt-for-presumptive-taxation-do-i-have-to-continue-with-presumptive-for-the-next-5-years/146720)
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### Author:  [@Raju\_Vala](https://tradingqna.com/u/Raju_Vala)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2024, 6:31am UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/can-i-opt-for-presumptive-taxation-44ad-in-this-case/146698/51 "2024-07-28T06:31:20Z")
do I need to submit P&L and balancesheet in presumptive income return?
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### Author:  [@Quicko](https://tradingqna.com/u/Quicko)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2024, 11:22am UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/can-i-opt-for-presumptive-taxation-44ad-in-this-case/146698/52 "2024-07-28T11:22:56Z")
Hi @Raju_Vala,
Yes, while you are not required to maintain books of accounts under the presumptive taxation scheme, you will have to fill out the balance sheet while filing the ITR.
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