# ITR-3 Spectulative income - whether to fill section 61 or section 65 in P&L?
**URL:** https://tradingqna.com/t/itr-3-spectulative-income-whether-to-fill-section-61-or-section-65-in-p-l/196575
**Category:** Taxation
**Created:** [August 1, 2026, 4:43am UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/itr-3-spectulative-income-whether-to-fill-section-61-or-section-65-in-p-l/196575 "2026-08-01T04:43:14Z")
**Posts on this page:** 14
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@adianadiadi](https://tradingqna.com/u/adianadiadi)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2026, 4:43am UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/itr-3-spectulative-income-whether-to-fill-section-61-or-section-65-in-p-l/196575/1 "2026-08-01T04:43:14Z")
I found that, in ITR-3,
under **Part A - P & L** section and
**sub section 61. Computation Presumptive Business Income under section 44AD** -
there is a business code **21009 - Speculative trading**.
At the same time -
there is also provision to show the speculative income (when books are not maintained) under points **65 (i)-(iii)** like Turnover from speculative activity, Gross proft, expenditure etc.
My question is where to enter **speculative income?**
**61. Under 44AD**
**or**
**65 (i)-(iii)?**
Thank you in advance.
@BB789 @Quicko @TAXIQ.IN @yashdeep_kothari@Jason_Castelino
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### Author:  [@BB789](https://tradingqna.com/u/BB789)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2026, 4:55am UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/itr-3-spectulative-income-whether-to-fill-section-61-or-section-65-in-p-l/196575/2 "2026-08-01T04:55:51Z")
Refer
> [@Query - ITR-3: Speculative Business under Section 44AD](https://tradingqna.com/t/query-itr-3-speculative-business-under-section-44ad/196035/19):
>
> I think the correct way is to put it all in item 61 under two business: 21009-Speculative trading 21010-Futures and Options trading for Intraday equity and F&O respectively. And 21011-Buying and selling shares if you’re declaring CG as business income(positional equity trading) cc: @adianadiadi
and the following discussions for more context and previous discussion on the matter.
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### Author:  [@chheda25jn](https://tradingqna.com/u/chheda25jn)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2026, 3:07pm UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/itr-3-spectulative-income-whether-to-fill-section-61-or-section-65-in-p-l/196575/3 "2026-08-02T15:07:32Z")
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### Author:  [@adianadiadi](https://tradingqna.com/u/adianadiadi)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2026, 3:41am UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/itr-3-spectulative-income-whether-to-fill-section-61-or-section-65-in-p-l/196575/4 "2026-08-03T03:41:05Z")
Thank you very much. I am now going through it. But still confusing.
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### Author:  [@adianadiadi](https://tradingqna.com/u/adianadiadi)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2026, 3:56am UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/itr-3-spectulative-income-whether-to-fill-section-61-or-section-65-in-p-l/196575/5 "2026-08-03T03:56:42Z")
Thank you. Great information.
My question is whether to show the speculative income under
**61. Under 44AD**
**or**
**65 (i)-(iii)?** if there is a loss?
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### Author:  [@Quicko](https://tradingqna.com/u/Quicko)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2026, 1:12pm UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/itr-3-spectulative-income-whether-to-fill-section-61-or-section-65-in-p-l/196575/6 "2026-08-03T13:12:27Z")
@adianadiadi
Intraday loss or income needs to be mentioned under point no. 65 (i) - (iii) in ITR form. If you want to show it as presumptive income and want to opt for presumptive scheme then you should declare it in point 61.
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### Author:  [@adianadiadi](https://tradingqna.com/u/adianadiadi)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2026, 5:03pm UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/itr-3-spectulative-income-whether-to-fill-section-61-or-section-65-in-p-l/196575/7 "2026-08-03T17:03:48Z")
That is really great help. Thank you. Now the question is do I need to maintain books if I fill point 65? especially if I show the loss? In case of loss, is it ok to avoid this completely, I mean neither 61 not 65…? @Quicko
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### Author:  [@adianadiadi](https://tradingqna.com/u/adianadiadi)
#### Post date: [August 3, 2026, 5:06pm UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/itr-3-spectulative-income-whether-to-fill-section-61-or-section-65-in-p-l/196575/8 "2026-08-03T17:06:31Z")
Thank you. what is the source of this information?
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### Author:  [@adianadiadi](https://tradingqna.com/u/adianadiadi)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2026, 2:21pm UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/itr-3-spectulative-income-whether-to-fill-section-61-or-section-65-in-p-l/196575/9 "2026-08-11T14:21:37Z")
Is it ok to show the loss in section 65 without maintaining the books?
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### Author:  [@BB789](https://tradingqna.com/u/BB789)
#### Post date: [August 11, 2026, 4:59pm UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/itr-3-spectulative-income-whether-to-fill-section-61-or-section-65-in-p-l/196575/10 "2026-08-11T16:59:15Z")
I don’t think so. The last thing you want to do is give the government the chance to say you voluntarily opted out of presumptive scheme for intraday trading. What’s to stop AO from saying all your trading business is the same and they opt you out of all presumptive for all trading business. I think the priority should be legal defense (“I never considered intraday as normal non- presumptive income as seen in my return”) rather than filing defects, which can be rectified if needed and later even if AO claims 65 should be filled, even if you chose presumptive income, you have the record that it was AO’s claim and never yours(your original return as proof). Not a CA, just my opinion - use at your own risk.
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### Author:  [@Arjun\_C](https://tradingqna.com/u/Arjun_C)
#### Post date: [August 12, 2026, 11:19am UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/itr-3-spectulative-income-whether-to-fill-section-61-or-section-65-in-p-l/196575/11 "2026-08-12T11:19:36Z")
> [@adianadiadi](#):
>
> I found that, in ITR-3,
>
> under **Part A - P & L** section and
>
> **sub section 61. Computation Presumptive Business Income under section 44AD** -
>
> there is a business code **21009 - Speculative trading**.
>
> At the same time -
>
> there is also provision to show the speculative income (when books are not maintained) under points **65 (i)-(iii)** like Turnover from speculative activity, Gross proft, expenditure etc.
>
> My question is where to enter **speculative income?**
>
> **61. Under 44AD**
>
> **or**
>
> **65 (i)-(iii)?**
If the income is from **speculative business** , it should generally be reported under **Schedule BP / the relevant speculative-business section (65)** rather than treating it as normal 44AD presumptive business income.
Section **44AD does not apply to speculative transactions**. So even though ITR-3 may show the business code **21009 – Speculative Trading** under the 44AD section, the presence of the code does not make speculative income eligible for 44AD presumptive taxation.
For speculative transactions where books are not maintained, report the **speculative turnover, gross profit and related expenses** in the specified fields under **65(i)–(iii)** and let the return compute the resulting speculative business income.
Given that ITR utility fields can change between assessment years, it is worth checking the instructions for the relevant AY before filing.
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### Author:  [@adianadiadi](https://tradingqna.com/u/adianadiadi)
#### Post date: [August 16, 2026, 2:32pm UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/itr-3-spectulative-income-whether-to-fill-section-61-or-section-65-in-p-l/196575/12 "2026-08-16T14:32:46Z")
> [@Arjun\_C](#):
>
> For speculative transactions where books are not maintained, report the **speculative turnover, gross profit and related expenses** in the specified fields under **65(i)–(iii)** and let the return compute the resulting speculative business income.
Thank you very much. May I know how to show loss? Do I have to fill negative number in 65(ii) (it is saying profit) or just simply zero? If it is zero then what to show in 65(iii) - that is expenditure? @Quicko
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### Author:  [@Quicko](https://tradingqna.com/u/Quicko)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2026, 11:47am UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/itr-3-spectulative-income-whether-to-fill-section-61-or-section-65-in-p-l/196575/13 "2026-08-17T11:47:00Z")
Hello @adianadiadi
You can enter negative amount in 65(ii) and expenditure such as brokerage etc. can be claimed in 65(iii).
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### Author:  [@adianadiadi](https://tradingqna.com/u/adianadiadi)
#### Post date: [August 19, 2026, 4:26pm UTC](https://tradingqna.com/t/itr-3-spectulative-income-whether-to-fill-section-61-or-section-65-in-p-l/196575/14 "2026-08-19T16:26:55Z")
@Quicko Thank you very much. But if I dont maintain the books, is it ok to show the loss here. Actually, the stock trading firm provides us with all the details of transactions. So what is the meaning of maintaining books…?