Low brokerage leads to people overtrading

[Jason_Castelino]

@AlgoEye

would agree , here I punch 10 orders for 18k quantity even tough we have enough liquidity in OTMs that I think could be managed by 2 or max 3 orders

Totally agree on this. On expiry days I change my strikes at least 3 times on both sides. What could do with 6 orders in total with 120 rupees I have to place 60 orders and incur 1200.

[SachinSingh]

Ye freeze limit bas ek kamane ka tarika hai, aur kuch nahi. This talk of doing it for the “safety of the retailers” is just bollocks.

@SachinSingh

Few years back, the max order size used to be 7500, then it reduced to 4950, and now it’s 2800/1800. Also, it never used to get revised at the end of month either. So call it a conspiracy theory or whatever, but many traders including myself feel that this was done to compensate the brokers for the intraday leverage being taken away. In June last year, they first reduced the lot size to 50, then in August, this max order size limit got reduced, and finally in September, the leverage was taken away. People say this was done to prevent freak trades, but that’s just bollocks. Freak trades kept happening after that as well, and still do, though they have reduced.

[Ashwin_kumar1]

Lot size is changed to keep notional value of contracts between 5-10lakhs & freeze quantity to keep notional below 5Cr. If these aren’t changed periodically, then contracts would become too large/small to trade as the underlying value increases/ decreases. No conspiracy here.

If you/ i accidentally press one/two extra zeros in our order quantity, it will be rejected due to insufficient funds. If institutions happen to do this without proper order checks from their risk management teams, it would be disastrous without freeze quantity!

[viswaram]

what logic is that?

How can the rules be set considering the institution in mind? If they have a problem get a software to double check the qty & price.
No system should favor the privileged by looting from the poor.

also the freeze qty is not really getting enforced now - its a disaster because all the brokers offer iceberg orders. ie you place an order for 10000 qty, system will split as 11 orders of 900 and 1 order of 100 for bank nifty.
only difference is that you pay brokerage 12 times instead of 1.

*well i pay zero brokerage intraday, so it doesnt really matter for me now - but i am quite sure looking at my trading pattern my broker will soon do away with this offering

[Ashwin_kumar1]

@viswaram

its a disaster because all the brokers offer iceberg orders

You have to punch the wrong quantity & wrong split! god save you if you can be that stupid😅

@viswaram

How can the rules be set considering the institution in mind? If they have a problem get a software to double check the qty & price.
No system should favor the privileged by looting from the poor.

This favours the privileged? How?

Is anyone who can place orders above the freeze quantity poor? (Assuming you’re selling first ofcourse)

[SachinSingh]

Fat finger trades used to happen earlier, and will keep happening in the future.
And like I said earlier, this is only a recent change, introduced a few years ago.

@SachinSingh

Few years back, the max order size used to be 7500, then it reduced to 4950, and now it’s 2800/1800. Also, it never used to get revised at the end of month either.

Check this old post & compare the freeze quantity to what it was back then to what it is now:

@nithin

This is a restriction from the exchange. Check this link on NSE .

Not to mention, the lot size has decreased too

@SachinSingh

In June last year, they first reduced the lot size to 50,

Someone mentioned that it was higher if you go more back in the day

@Devesh

I remember in early 2009 qty freeze limit for nifty future was 15000 or 300 lots.

[Ashwin_kumar1]

I don’t get it, lot size and freeze quantity are a no brainer.

Of all the stupid shit that sebi and nse introduce, this is of least concern.

[viswaram]

@Ashwin_kumar1

Is anyone who can place orders above the freeze quantity poor?

Poor need not be literal. It here means the cost of doing business.

If person1 is making a profit of 1 lakh by spending 35k & person2 is making a profit of 0.8 lakh by spending 10k - who is poorer ?

[Ashwin_kumar1]

@viswaram

Poor need not be literal. It here means the cost of doing business.

If person1 is making a profit of 1 lakh by spending 35k & person2 is making a profit of 0.8 lakh by spending 10k - who is poorer ?

What?
What does rich/poor have to do with cost of business?

[Jason_Castelino]

@Ashwin_kumar1

Of all the stupid shit that sebi and nse introduce, this is of least concern.

You feel it that way because your trade quantity is probably below 1800 quantity. You do not know the difference in brokerage that we have to bear.

[Ashwin_kumar1]

@Jason_Castelino

You feel it that way because your trade quantity is probably below 1800 quantity. You do not know the difference in brokerage that we have to bear.

It’s higher. Refer to my first post on this thread, I just think the other charges are way more bloated than brokerage.

[viswaram]

@Ashwin_kumar1

What does rich/poor have to do with cost of business?

Only full time traders will truly understand this!

Having a high brokerage will automatically increase other costs as well, eg: the GST is on the brokerage. STT & stamp duty are higher but not as high as brokerage.

If you are trading in FnO - just calculate the % brokerage you paid last year vs the revenue you made.

[Ashwin_kumar1]

14% of net profit to charges of which, only 3.25% is brokerage. I do trade full time😅

Infact, the real damage only comes after all this… while paying itr😅

[Jason_Castelino]

@Ashwin_kumar1

just think the other charges are way more bloated than brokerage.

For the month of Jan in one of my accounts. Total charges are 7390. Out of this brokerage is 5040

This is the screenshot of the same.

If I consider all my accounts I have paid total charges of around 30k. Out of this around 22k is just brokerage. Now if there was no quantity freeze easily I would have saved 15k. This is just in one month.

Your other charges are more because you probably trading in ATM or ITM. AGAIN, just guessing from what you have said above.

[Ashwin_kumar1]

I trade itm,otm&atm. Yes, i can see how brokerage can become high. There are ways to use your capital more efficiently to reduce brokerage. Although, nothing can be done about the other charges.

[viswaram]

@Ashwin_kumar1

14% of net profit

now thats really great. Your trading is highly efficient.

With zerodha, our average % charges are 25 to 30% on the revenue made.

[Jason_Castelino]

@Ashwin_kumar1

There are ways to use your capital more efficiently to reduce brokerage.

No boss. There aren’t. For what I do, there aren’t.
Not necessarily everybody does the same thing as you.
Other charges remaining constant I would at least want my brokerage and gst to come down.

This is like you tell me you have a problem and I tell you our soldiers are dying on the border and you are talking about your problems.
(Read after transacting in Hindi.)

[Ashwin_kumar1]

@Jason_Castelino

No boss. There aren’t. For what I do, there aren’t.
Not necessarily everybody does the same thing as you.
Other charges remaining constant I would at least want my brokerage and gst to come down.

This is like you tell me you have a problem and I tell you our soldiers are dying on the border and you are talking about your problems.
(Read after transacting in Hindi.)

I don’t know about dying soldiers but I’m quiet sure that small tweaks to your system will drastically reduce brokerage and probably even reduce exposure.

[Jason_Castelino]

We can both hold on to our opinion. Cheers.

[Jason_Castelino]

@viswaram

our average % charges are 25 to 30% on the revenue made.

Just did my math. My charges are 3.4 percent of net profit. Out of the total charges 80 percent is just brokerage and gst