Introducing Verified P&L on Console

hmmm… I am not sure. Let me speak to the team in any case.

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This is a nice feature to roll out. Congrats.

I also like the stated purpose of the feature, and just have 2 observations which I think if solved for, would further strengthen it:

  1. Why keep a fixed date range? Will not it lead to people only generating links for a profitable time period? While this is much better than a verified MTM, it would still be great to let the viewer of the link set and view for various date range.

  2. Again, thinking along the primary objective, this still will not give any idea around profitability & ROI, I think which is equally important, if not more, as the absolute profits. Will it also be possible for a link viewer to see the average daily account margins (cash + collateral) for the set date range, and subsequently see some profitability metric?

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Hmm… not sure about this. It is a technically complex problem to solve as well if every person with access to a verified P&L link starts querying P&L between random time frames. The P&L calculation is quite complex, and this will increase the load exponentially.

But that said…

We are working on launching an equity curve on Console. Consider how MFs publish a daily NAV after considering pay-in/payout; we will have a daily NAV for every customer account. We will then plot the NAV curve for every user to know how they are performing, not just % returns but also comparing to benchmarks. Once this is launched, we will include that as an option for the user to publish it on verified P&L.

This is the only way to know the % returns, drawdowns, etc. Otherwise, even if you can access a ledger, manually calculating this is hard for anyone.

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Got it…maybe with more data on the system load, in future a few fixed date range options can be introduced (e.g. Last 30 days, Current FY, Last FY etc) just to take care of people unnecessarily spamming Twitter with a lucky patch from their trading journey.

This sounds interesting. So is it going to give an XIRR kind of view at an account level (including cash and fno trades), factoring in payins/ payouts/ corporate actions etc.? Asking since it just feels complicated considering the current console itself is not very reliable when it comes to qty (discrepant qty) or equity/ debt tags.
But eagerly awaiting this now. It’s very time consuming right now for us to track our performance and generated returns.

It would be great, if you also add an option, that just shows the “% return, drawdown and account value” to others. Only those details (not including profit per script, if someone wants a bit more privacy).

Discrepant issue creeps in when a stock is transferred in from another broker. Unless the right trades for it are entered, everything else will break. But if the issue is something else, can you create a support ticket and message @TheGouda and me?

For equity/Debt tags, we rely on a data vendor for it. Historically their data hasn’t been consistent, but we have manually fixed it. Can you give some examples where it is not correct? We will check on this.

How will the NAV curve work?

  1. A starting day NAV of, say, 100 and AUM = account value of that day (sum of free cash, holdings value, margins ).
  2. End of the day, % AUM change will cause the NAV to go up or down by the same %. Similar to how it happens in a mutual fund.
  3. Any Payin, new money gets in on the last day’s NAV. Any payout money goes out at the end of the day’s NAV. Similar to MF.

If you plot this NAV curve, it will be the equity curve of the account. So you can easily calculate CAGR, XIRR, or % return between any two points.

As you can imagine, this is quite a complex project; it is almost like running fund accounting for every customer account. AMCs pay money to RTAs to do this daily NAV calculation & fund accounting for every MF scheme.

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We could give a setting that allows users to decide what they want to share. But this will take a few months.

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Do traders look at how other traders make money these days?

In a corporate job - agreed you can review how much appraisal your peer got. But in trading, why?

I have been calculating XIRR using excel by spending not more than 15 mins per month even if I have pay in and pay out everyday. All that I have to do is export ledger to excel and filter pay in and pay out.
If I can do it manually I really wonder why is it so difficult for the system to do it.
I had even posted about it before.

Am I missing anything here. @nithin

Hy @viswaram

Sharing returns on social media can give a dopamine effect :sunglasses: creating a sense of achievement and satisfaction. It can be an opportunity to showcase personal success, inspiring others and fostering a positive community. Additionally, it opens doors for networking, connecting with like-minded individuals, and even discovering potential business or job opportunities.

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I look at other traders strategies and talks on social media , even live trading it gives lot of inspiration. In trading its self learning, trading can’t be taught!!

Yeah, even I do that. Strategies, decision making, rationale & psychology - I follow few gurus. But never have I asked them to show me their returns.

There is an issue with how you are calculating (the link to your post). As long as there aren’t too many fund/stock transfers in and out, and there are no day trades and/or F&O trades, the simple XIRR utility on Excel works. But it breaks otherwise. We have to do this in a way that all our customers can use.

The only way to cover all scenarios for us was to create a daily NAV for the account.

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I have a lot of FNO trades on daily basis. Last FY I had12500 orders executed.
I thought account value consider all of this.

Isn’t account value supposed to be the net value if we close all positions and holdings at a time?
Inflows and outflows from and to my bank is all the matters to calculate XIRR. What happens in the account is not really relevant if account value that I see on the dashboard of console is correctly calculated.

NAV will also be depending on account value only. And if there are too many FNO trades then there is a possibility that even this may not work.

If the size of your account keeps changing (payin and payouts), you can’t assume that the capital is a straightforward current capital - payin+payouts for the period and then calculate a % return. The way you have done it in the post you have linked. This calculation will go wrong. I will probably get someone from our team to show that with an example. If you are account value is consistent, that is not too many payin/payouts, then yeah it will work as the approximate capital at play for the entire time period will be the same.

If you do a daily NAV, you are calculating the % return for the day based on the AUM of that day. So this is the only foolproof way of doing this, how MFs, hedge funds etc do their fund accounting.

@TheGouda this example, can you create one? It will be useful to explain in the future as well, whenever we launch equity curve.

Its a for safeguarding people Selling dreams in form of courses , tips and what not!. People are showing edited videos and snapshot to lure into account handling and what not all illegal. Its astonishing to see some people earning 30-40 Crores just mis selling dreams and marketing etc. Its become epidemic now. As if people can learn trading in 2 days attending these courses.!!

Every time I pay in I consider it as cash out flow with date in the corresponding column. Similarly when there is pay out I consider it as cash inflow. Since there is date for inflows and outflows irrespective of how many pay in and pay off are there it doesn’t matter.
Now after your comment I really doubt my calculations.

Yes. I am really interested to know where have I gone wrong.
For now I am still not convinced with your response.
Alternatively give me a full fledged NAV example I will do the same in my calculation. I know NAV way you will get the right answer. But for now at least I feel I will give you the same answer.

I think I now understood what you were saying. If we have to draw equity curve then yes, it can’t be done using XIRR.
NAV is an absolute value and XIRR is a relative value. So unless one outperforms his past returns, XIRR curve wont go up but NAV curve will go up even if he adds one rupee profit in 1 year.

The initiative of NAV and Equity curve is a good one. On top of publishing the verified Profit/loss to prove others, this will be kind of a Self evaluation more than profit %. I really appreciate this Initiative.

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