Verified P&L Screenshots by Sensibull. Questions, Feedback, and Ask me anything!

F&O
1

Hello,

We are planning to introduce verified P&L Screenshots by Sensibull. Ask me anything!
Please let me know if you have any feedback

Why do I need to verify the P&L of a person?
Fake Profit screenshots are the biggest scam in India’s trading scene. Scammers post fake screenshots and lure retail investors through Social Media to join their stock market training classes, paid groups, etc. Some also manage money for clients which is illegal as per regulations. Retail investors are losing money due to all these malpractices. This has to stop

What is this thing? How are Profit and Loss Verified by Sensibull?

Example first: Rohit shares his P&L at 3 PM on Twitter. The P&L screenshot goes to Twitter with a verification page link. Aswathi sees that P&L and clicks on the link at 320 PM. The link takes Aswathi to the verification website. Aswathi sees Rohit’s Profit and loss on the website, and his positions at 3 PM. The data Aswathi sees comes directly from the broker’s backend.

Rephrasing this for clarity:

  1. Rohit can choose to share his positions and P&L at a particular time from Sensibull
  2. Sensibull captures all positions and P&L at the time of sharing from the broker’s backend
  3. This is shared on social media with a verification link. People with this link have read-only access to the P&L and positions of the sharer
  4. Aswathi can click on the link, and verify the P&L at the time of sharing. The viewer also gets to see all the positions at the time of sharing.
  5. Please note that the image on social media is not verified. Anyone can photoshop it. What is real is the positions data and the P&L you will see on the website. This is because the data you see here is coming from the broker’s backend,

Is this a free service?
Yes. 100% free. To see someone’s P&L, you do not need a Sensibull account. It is a free public page without login. Sharing the P&L is also free. To share P&L, you can login to Sensibull, and share from the positions page.

But I see people sharing live videos of profits on the internet. That is fake?

It is easy to change a few lines of HTML code to show any fake P&L for anyone these days. So videos can be fake. This applies to websites and apps. Also, it is easy to build duplicate apps of brokers to display any P&L a scammer wants to show.

Is your only objective to catch the scammers?
No. There are two objectives here:

  1. Prevent fake or photoshopped photos and videos of scammers.
  2. More importantly, bring the good traders to the forefront. By verifying the P&L, you will know who is good. You can see the positions of good traders, and copy their trades

How does a verified P&L screenshot help?
By seeing the verified screenshot, you can see if it is real or not. And if the screenshot is recent, you can also see their trades, and copy them if you think they are good trades. It is not just a verification service, it is also a way to copy great traders who make money

What difference does one screenshot make? What if the traders post P&L on profitable days only? Anyone can be lucky once or twice.

We agree. That is why we have a P&L screenshot history with many screenshots. We encourage genuine traders to post one screenshot every day. The higher the number of screenshots posted periodically with consistent profits, the more trust. If you see someone who has posted a profit 40 out of 50 days, you can follow them. If someone is posting only one or two screenshots, they may be fake

What is the authenticity of data? Can it be photoshopped? Or manipulated?
Good Question. The picture shared on social media is not the verified P&L or proof. The webpage linked with the picture is where you verify. So there is no question about photoshop.

The link takes you to a secure site, with the data directly from the position API of the broker through the backend. No one can touch this positions data or fake it. It is very difficult to manipulate

Why should we trust Sensibull? What if you take bribes and verify the scammers?
Sensibull is India’s largest Options Trading platform with millions of users. Sensibull is tied up with Zerodha, Upstox, ICICI Direct, Angel One, IIFL, 5Paisa, etc who are the largest brokers in India. We are also a SEBI Registered Research Analyst. We are subject to constant audits by all our partners.

The data we display is the intellectual property of the exchange, coming directly from the broker’s backend. Manipulating/ faking that has serious legal implications that no one would want to risk

What if a person takes a buy position in one account and an opposite sell position in another account?
This is prevented by using unique nicknames.
The person who shared this P&L screenshot has a unique ID in Sensibull. For example, one broking account is Sensibull ID SB001, another account is SB002 etc. So every account has a unique ID

Each unique ID is linked to only one Twitter account. And a Twitter account is linked only to one Unique ID. When someone shares P&L, we can show this unique user ID of Sensibull along with the screenshot and the linked Twitter account. But who will remember a number, right?

This is why we have a unique system-generated nickname.

Let us learn it with the example of Bunty, a trader who wants to scam. Bunty is Bunty123 on Twitter. Bunty’s partner Bubbly is Bubbly420 on Twitter. Bunty plans to buy NIFTY on one account and sell NIFTY on Bubbly’s account

Bunty’s ID is linked to Bunty123 on Twitter. And we give a unique nickname to Bunty’s account ID: example - White Rabbit. Bubbly’s ID is linked to Bubbly420 on Twitter. And a unique nickname - example - Blue Whale. So

Bunty = SB001 = Bunty123 = White Rabbit

Bubbly = SB002 = Bubbly420 = Blue Whale

Essentially, Bunty cannot keep switching his accounts with opposite trades. Because people will know Bunty is Bunty123 of Twitter and White Rabbit in Sensibull. If he uses Bubbly’s account, it is Bubbly420 and Blue Whale. Thus, we prevent the same person from using two different accounts to show P&L

If I am sharing my profit and loss, is my data safe? Are you getting access to my trades or trade history?
As a SEBI Registered RA, Sensibull does not do any trading activities directly or indirectly. We do not sell or transfer this data to any third party for any purpose. Also, we do not store your trades or order history if the trades are not taken from Sensibull. In short, your data is safe with you and your broker. We are just a channel in between that transmits the data without analyzing it or storing it.

What if someone still shares screenshots from the broker site? Can Sensibull verify it?
No. They have to share from Sensibull. It is free and easy. So you may need to ask this person why he is not sharing a verified P&L :wink:

Is this only on Zerodha? What if I trade with a broker Sensibull is not integrated with?
It is available on Zerodha, Upstox, ICICI, AngelOne, 5Paisa, and IIFL. We are adding other brokers soon

Can I share the P&L screenshot link on Twitter only?
You can share it on any social media such as Telegram, WhatsApp, etc through a link

Please let me know your questions and suggestions for improvement. Please share this post and spread the word.

Most importantly, let us know how a scammer can scam this system :slight_smile:

Thank you,
Abid
CEO & CoFounder Sensibull

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Super excited for the launch! Cheers.

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Awesome news for retailers

But we would miss all the fun from beautiful :wink: and lovely Fintwit traders.

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Lovely and Beautiful, I see what you did there :face_with_peeking_eye:

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@Sensibull But if they have 2 account and share the account with profit, even if verified , everything works
Haven’t gone through your post

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There is a nickname (user id types) for each broker account linked. This nickname would help identify if the person is posting for one I’d or two ids

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Neither of which is fulfilled by the proposed feature,
for the majority of the public that are not tech-savvy.

This feature cannot prevent doctored photos/videos.
There will continue to be fake/doctored P&L images and videos on the internet.
They will now also mimic the look-and-feel of this proposed “Verified P&L page”.

…and the “bad traders” will begin to host modified versions of the “verified page” on fake domains like http://sencibull.com and share links to those in their publicity stunts.

Would this proposed feature do more damage than good,
by instilling unwarranted confidence within the public
on a screenshot/webpage that mimics the proposed Sensibull Verified public P&L statement ?

This proposed feature reminds me of the blue tick mark feature on Twitter.
Can help a minor tech-savvy crowd in specific circumstances. But, doesn’t solve the actual trust problem.
(Solving trust on the internet is indeed a hard problem)

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Looks like you didn’t understand the feature.Its like you need to click on link and login to sensibul to see the results.How it will be fake?

Lots of fake gurus shops are going to close :stuck_out_tongue: , quite a good feature i would say.There are lots of people earning in crores per month just by tips and classes showing fake PnLs

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@Sensibull : Well done!

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Ha ha no. :laughing:
I know Sensibull’s above announcement is a lengthy post, but please read it once more.
Specifically this bit…

Also, even if it was login-only feature,
none of this helps the majority non tech-savvy folks
who cannot differentiate between…

  • a screenshot of a webpage vs. an inline preview thumbnail of a webpage
  • valid domain-name vs. phishing domain/sub-domain

…posted in social media (chats/forums).

Also, if more folks start lending credence to this,
it only stands to become the target of scam-artists
who can create fake domains (eg. sencibull.com :wink: ) and webpages with desired P&L reports.

Sure, there is a subset of folks…

  • …who are tech-savvy enough to understand the difference between
    a screenshot and inline preview of a webpage on social-media.

  • …who understand the difference between http and https

    • i.e how the former is trivial to intercept/redirect/fake.

  • …who understand URLs/domain-names

  • …who are vigilant to spot fake domains (eg. sencibull.com)

…who can rely of this feature of momentary snapshots of someone else’s P&L report,
to judge their market proficiency.

Do we want a feature to cater to the above subset of folks
(personal opinion - i believe the above subset is a tiny minority)
at the expense of promoting an easy to fake webpage template
and encouraging the majority of folks to rely on that,
and be more easily scammed than now?

It will be interesting if this “Verified P&L Report” feature becomes even slightly mainstream.
I fully expect scam/phishing look-alike sites to pop-up,
that imitate sensibull domain-names and branding, to…

  • …at-least, show fake-PNL reports.
  • …at-worst, phish sensibull logins from unsuspecting visitors.

Probably this final bit is something that might persuade Sensibull against this feature.
As in this case, the costs (in the form of a damaged brand-name and a bad user-experience)
will be faced by Sensibull themselves, and not the wider community.

You asked for it. Thanks for hearing me out so far. :slightly_smiling_face:

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There need not be a login feature. URL can be publicly accessed.
Ppl should learn to check URL Certificate in the browser. Many browsers warn too.
There are safe browsing features provided by OS/3rd party AV too.

Fake domains cannot be under their control.
Tomo DNS poisoning etc can happen and any of your traffic will be diverted.

Minimum tech savviness is reqd. Scam/phishing etc should be controlled by the platform instead like GMail / google messages etc try to do.

Those who identify fake links can name and shame. We have seen some famous Twitter trader a/c’s go private too…

Being naive isn’t an excuse :smiley:

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Savvy means well informed, knowledgeable. To make people tech savvy, who are from all walks of life is impossible, we are talking about people from different age groups, different education levels, different professions. It is one thing to install an app and use it, it is another thing to be knowledgeable about technology for everyone.

Moreover greed blinds, the thought of easy and quick money is hard to resist :roll_eyes:

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Good PR activity, and might help create brand awareness. However, I think the stated purpose is just a gimmick. Unless you can eliminate greed, gullible folks will fall prey to scammers.

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Your guys are not able to get FINNIFTY in Sensibull and are busy picking up non core stuff like screenshots .

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@Sensibull

Great Feature! Hope people will be more aware with this! When is this going to be launched? We can already see cry from scammers questioning this on twitter, imagine the fear :joy:

For future roadmap, having a historical p&l history for each segment would be good too, same as zerodha p&l but verified by sensibull!

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@Sensibull in my opinion, what matters the most is users being able to verify the monthly, quarterly or even yearly PNL of someone via this. That will be the game changer. getting daily PNL is ok, but doesn’t serve the purpose to a large extent.

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@Sensibull Can we get realized and unrealized P/L Tracked?

Screenshot 2022-11-30 at 10.48.36 AM
Screenshot 2022-11-30 at 10.48.36 AM640×1188 69.3 KB

Looking at this history tab, a novice viewer might think that I have been making a Profit of 1K & 2K per day :laughing:

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Aren’t you making that per day? Are you saying that you are making more than that per day? :thinking:

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Those are the MTM values for those days, I have not realized those profits.
Just looking at those, one can’t tell what’s realized P/L as my unrealized value keeps showing +ve.

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Hi Sir,
I want to understand that net obligation amount break up for F&O trading at different situations.