ARTI vs SEBI. Should ARTI go to court?

General
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First off, as you may know already SEBI is coming out with all these rules that are killing trading and participation in the market. As a response to this, ARTI was created by me and a couple other people. So basically, ARTI’s goal is to fight against SEBI and restore the Indian financial markets to a healthy state. For this, ARTI has proposed 6 rules that should be challenged in court. Later on in this post as to what these 6 rules are.

You can support us by replying to this thread saying that you support us so that I can know who 's supporting us. I can’t post the link to the group in here or share my contact because that is prohibited.

With that aside, I went to a lawyer today. I asked everyone in the group and most of them did say they would like to move this to court and therefore I consulted a lawyer on this.

And let me tell you what the lawyer said because I guess that’s something everyone wants to hear. Following are the details -

First of all, the association needs to be registered because that would represent a body while filing a case. The particular type of association will be a Society.

And the 6 rules that ARTI has proposed are as follows -

  1. Net worth rule - You all know this. Yet to be implemented.
  2. ASM rule - Again yet to be implemented. This one came into light recently.
  3. Exposure margin rule - This rule has been implemented already and you guys may know of this. This rule is not only regressive but also flawed in a number of ways.
  4. Physical settlement rule - This also came recently. This one is also bad becuase ultimately it is inferior to cash settlement.
  5. Smaller lot size - This one a lot of people do ask for. Plus this rule came to bar retailers to begin with. Regressive.
  6. Triple STT on options - If you guys remember, this also happened. It adds to the cost of business and no business wants it’s cost to be increased basically.

You guys are traders. You must already know what these rules mean. I have just listed them.

And the lawyer said that out of these 6 rules, 2 have not come yet so they can’t be challenged right now. But the rest 4 can be. And he said that we can challenge it on the grounds that these regulations are hurting business and for this a PIL is appropriate. A PIL because it affecting a class of people.

And rest is fees structure which I am disclosing below -

Registration of association will take Rs 50000.
Initial fees for the case which means filing the case is Rs 1lakh.
Per hearing he will charge Re 15000.
Short hearings will be charged at Rs 7500.

Name of the law firm is Singh & Singh which is based in Delhi.

Now that all the details are disclosed, I’d like to know if we should really take this to court and if we do, fees has to shared among the group. As far as sharing the fees goes, the burden won’t be much on each person. The initial fees may seem daunting but it’s a one time fee. Rest of the fees for each hearing is relatively cheap. Of course, we’d like as many volunteers as possible. The more the better. If plenty of you guys are committed to this, then surely fees won’t be a burden.
But the last thing I want is to be ditched and you guys don’t pay. That would waste all our efforts and time we put to this. Again I am telling you, you can do the math. Even if 50 of us support the funding, then only Rs2000 would need to be paid by each one for the initial fees and thereafter, only Rs 300 for each person per hearing. Rs300 is nothing. A lunch at a restaurant would cost you that much. Now,

I have created a poll and you may vote with regards to what you opinion is and if you are willing to fund our endeavor. If you do vote yes I am willing to fund this or even yes I can only provide morale support, make sure you leave a comment below so that I can know who’s supporting us. Otherwise, I wouldn’t know.

One more thing. If we don’t fight, we lose for sure. But if we do fight, we might win and if worse comes to worse, the rules will imposed on us which is what is happening either way. All I want to say is - Don’t go down without fighting. And we are not asking for much. This is a democracy and people should feel free to come together and express their interest. India is the world’s largest democracy and we need to fight for what we feel and know is right.

And to the moderators - please don’t delete this post just becuase you think I am promoting my group. I am not. I am not sharing any contacts or links. Just wanna see who’s with us.

  • Yes, we should go to court and I am willing to fund this.
  • Yes, we should go to court but I can only provide morale support.
  • No, this is a bad idea. We are going to lose.
  • I am neutral.

0 voters

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Well done Avi …more power to you …I am willing to support you

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Spread the word everyone. Get more people.

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I am not against it all but If you are going to do this, you need atleast one person, who can fund all this and fight till the end without any external support and all by himself/herself. Or you need a person at the top who can carry all of this by himself/herself. I mean a leader. He/she must know to keep it all together, the people, the issues and the fight. Else the results will be uncertain, and even if we win, it may not exactly be what we wanted.

BUT, I could be wrong. I am a trader and I know there could be a chance for something unthinkable to happen.

According to one of the news articles (from “sebi wants to cap”, thread), total number of retail traders (based on demat accounts) is just about 3.3 crores. If you consider this number and compare with india population, you know where do we really stand, even if all of the people join together and make a stand.

So either we need a great benefactor or a great leader (may be in the form some MLA, MP etc.). To be able to carry off things.

One must realize, SEBI is not some private body but an government organization brought into existence through legislation. Not that we cannot fight against it, but it will kinda be people against people so preparation should be very careful and strong.

Or things may get worse for sure.

I am not discouraging anything or anyone. But personally I am a fierce fighter, and when I get into a fight, I give all of myself into the fight, and make sure that I win, by any means necessary. Until, I am that sure, I don’t pickup a fight.

I didn’t vote by the way, if you might think I brought down the percentage supporting this proposal.

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We have to share the fees because that is in everyone’s interest and shows support. Getting someone influential is hard. We are trying. I’d like you to cast your vote and share what your opinion. Though, I naturally want that you not only support our cause but also help fund it and join our group on telegram. So please think about this.

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Why I am saying what i am saying; there is a saying, Too many cooks spoil the broth. I agree we need to split the cost, but when this happens, people sharing the cost may want to enforce their own viewpoints regarding what need to be done.

So we need one person, who is able to keep things on a single path without hurting the contributors and without succumbing to preesure to include their agendas. So there comes the need of a leader at the top.

Or if there is a great benefactor, people will really know, they are just there to support the issue and not take complete ownership of it.

Also, there may be people against this proposal or people may leave after joining. So this thing has to be fortified against all of this. So…

The thing is, the issues must not get diluted or get weak as time passes by. It’s like journey, which must be completed in all it’s glory despite of hardships faced through out.

There could another way. Everything, the issues and the proposal be vetted so thoroughly, that there is no room for addition or changes. Also, rather than just going against the rules, alternatives should be given too, because ultimately SEBI has been made for helping things get better. So we should not look like we are opposing good things, but only that the proposed rules are not going to make it better but make it worse.

If you go through that route, it might actually help.

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I am the leading one here. And I have listed all the rules we want to challenge. There is a difference of opinion for sure but I believe reversal of all 6 rules would serve everyone’s interest. But what do I say? We lack funders. Maybe I am the fool here. To think well of the market. I made a group because I believe what’s happening is wrong and mostly from people’s comments here no one is happy with sebi. But I guess people don’t really care. That’s how rock hard they are. Sure, everyone wants to comment, like and support from behind a screen. But we are so weak and hopeless when it comes to getting real work done. I thought we would gain more support if I started doing some ground work. But it seems like people are not bothered. But everything is self regulatory in nature I guess. Things play themselves out. That’s all.

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@SBpat Being passive will prolong the pain I think.
And just few NRIs have AMFRI, why shouldnt millions of traders have one union of their own, which will look after their interests,not just this case…this is my logic.

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Exactly. If you have seen the movie Lagaan, then even in that movie they supported the cause despite the fact that if they lost they would pay a huge price. You guys don’t even have that here. If we lose, same thing happens if we don’t try.

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That is my point. The AMRI is because they are all well versed and organized people. I have been saying this all along, you cannot push or pull people to some issue. You cannot decide what people will like or not. You cannot think what is good or not based on your own perception and judgement of things. Only people can decide, what they will like or not, you can only support or not support it. But you can give people choice and then help them decide to choose. So just throwing up a bunch of issues may not going to help.

You just need to give people the facts and reason to support you. Although, you may be correct, you may not really be addressing all the issues. Don’t just go by the number, but understand what people are really doing and who are the true supporters. If you do that, you wouldn’t need even a large number of people to support you but even 10, 50 or 100 people will provide enough strength to get this through to get the desired end result.

I saw people who funded with bribe money. They are “investors” too, but do you think they will care much if they are going to lose some of it. They will simply take their money somewhere else than get into a fight.

Not everyone has the appetite to fight it out in the court. It’s not just money but more than that. it is the involvement.

So again, if you want people to support you, you really have to think for them. Their weaknesses and strengths. How and how much they can support.

But I don’t know, I look like a fool saying all this because I do not have any real experience “leading” people. Also, according to the same yardstick above, one may never know what motivates people, out of the blue. You see mob lynching news all around and such so…

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OK good point

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Case in point in my first reply. The great leader. Amir khan brought them all together giving them reasons to support by being steadfast in his resolve to fight back even if alone. So you lead by example. That is why need for a great leader or a great benefactor. Everybody looks for benefit whether emotional or financial but minus the costs. It’s human nature.

People will support, only if they are 100% sure their head will not roll. or if they do, they will not be alone in it. People support cause and not individuals who bring them forth. So either you will have to be selfish and form whatever small group you can muster and don’t think about the benefit people may have from all this or, you work harder to convince people to join or go alone and give people the reason to start and keep joining you.

How many big budget movies have you seen becoming a success without promotion. You have to give people reasons to be part of it by all means necessary.

And i think, we a bunch of small time traders with equally busy life have no such person among us, to really fight for the cause of the people.

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You want that I should change my wording and tell everyone what happens if we win?

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The points you raised are very valid and practical too.
In real life these things play out and I’ve seen it happen.
The fight is long and it won’t just be a matter of money it will also need persistent leadership who don’t deviate from goal and don’t lose motivation in the long run. This could easily take around 10 to 15 years to be true. So the people who are fighting with enthusiasm today might become old by then and lose energy or enthu could be possible … also the person who takes over should be equally enthusiastic about the issues and also have equal motivation.
All these things make it very difficult and this has been the main reason why no such association got formed till now.
People are thinking and discussing all things that can practically be done.
Good that you shared your ideas. Maximum that would happen is no action will be taken. In that case we must not feel ashamed that we were not able to carry it out as planned because we all know that there are so so many hurdles on this way.

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Yeah, so we need to build a system and ensure that it is flexible enough to allow changes over time to adjust for newer situations but without dilution of main goals of ARTI. It cannot be formed for just one issue but work as an umbrella for the welfare of trader and may be investor people too.

And for that we need to have a constitution of our own for ARTI. It anyway would require a set of rules to guide it for its proper functioning. A good structure is very important in something being successful.

This way, we may even gain faith of people in us by showing we are not just some bunch of protestors who just want to save it for themselves but actually care for the cause of the people and how it is going to affect them.

And if we fight this we way I am sure we will succeed.

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Registration of the association is the most important thing to make it legal and gain trust of people for joining it.

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We are not even getting funders right now. It’s tough.

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This is important step !

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Now it is “UNLISTED 4 MINS AGO”.

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Hmm… Why delist the thread all of a sudden?

Feels weird!!

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