Before May 1, there used to be multiple margin changes, with the last one being at 2 pm. Now, margins are based on BOD, and only update from day to day.
More chances of market making a large move on a day to day basis, than a 90 minute period (2 pm to 3:30 pm), hence more difficult to predict the EOD margin for a overnight/positional trader.
So like you said in this comment, which am again quoting, if there’s a provision for live margin change/update as per the latest SPAN (either on Kite itself or some place else like your margin calculator), we’ll be better equipped to take overnight positions & utilise funds in an optimum manner. Right now, we’re having to leave more funds than earlier. It doesn’t have to be live all the time, even if we get to know the margin for one particular time before market close, say 3 or 3:15 pm, would also be very helpful.
Mechanics of SPAN is way too complex for an ordinary retailer, and can’t be done without the proper software…
@nithin
Any possibility that zerodha will make its api’s free, point in case being each trade has brokerage which will act as rate limitter for not over using the APIs even if they are free…
Or atleast provide free market rates readonly API which can be provided at say 1 min frequency…?
The paid API rates are too high for retail traders to efficiently compete against Instutional Bots and algo and its becoming more and more uneven field.
I see 2 options going forward enable algo trading like features on Kite itself or give control back to traders via free APIs… i prefer the later as this involves no investments from your side and as well let traders customize their algo’s with high degree of flexibility…
I have been casually hinting about APIs whenever the topic comes up for a few years but Nithinji has his reasons
Recently, ICICI breeze has up’d competition by providing free api and data but also 0 Brokerage (Free orders) if orders are placed using api.
Btw, i’ve always supported brokerage, low or 0 doesn’t incentivize the business but extremely high API charges are no longer a “deterrent” as it was like 5 years ago.
We are waiting on regulatory clarity around the usage of APIs. Until then, the idea of charging a fee for the API is also to make sure it acts like a qualifier in terms of only the serious folks using it. With the availability of APIs at large now and it being used by many algo platforms today to offer automated trading without any regulatory licenses to people who have no idea about the risks of APIs, I think there is a large risk of regulations that might make APIs restrictive.
Note sure how to respond to that, “Will SEBI adopt or reject the idea of API/Algo based trading ?” No one has answer, the request that i have made is till this decision is out would love to have free access to these API’s…
Now i am not sure why you think we need a qualifier for only serious traders to use them, it has same litigation, loss probabilities if not less as web interface(kite) does nothing different… or i may have not understood the term “Serious Trader” are those quantity traders or experienced traders? either way i dont think distinction makes any sense for API access
API’s enable a new edge for new retail traders where quick decision can be taken to move in and out of position (especially when the Kite UI is really not favourable for making adjustments) and i think putting a hefty price on this will only drive away new retail traders, while you may still keep the big traders but in long run this wont scale for the business…
The more the number of people driving a car without knowing how to, the higher the chances of an accident happening and higher the chances of regulatory action when it happens. APIs are meant to be used by programmers who know what they are doing and not by retail traders who are clueless.
The risk here with free APIs is that many more can start taking the risk of being on random algo platforms and, eventually a large blowout, bringing this entire API business to an end. I don’t think most brokers offering this for free are thinking of long-term risks. As you mentioned, business-wise, we will probably make a lot more money through brokerage fees than API charges if we make it free. But then it wouldn’t be the smart thing to do given all the risks I mentioned earlier.
Dude every child who has completed 10th know’s a stuff about programming, and most of the new retail traders are engineers or have some technical experience. Software has become a commodity now in my opinion and most of them know challenges and pitfalls of the same when they move to API route…
Again i understand we have a difference of opinion on this subject and dont want to change this into debate, so reiterating my request in different words “re-think on making free api available to customers (if not trading at least readonly ticker apis) with your product managers, technical team & audience poll/voice”
Is it possible to hide some particular stock X from my holdings? or is it not possible due to regulations. I am asking this because in case I want to hold that stock for more than 10 years. But I do not want to move by daily volatility.
If above condition not possible, then can we bifurcate holdings in kite (I am not talking about tagging in console). So, it will be possible to differentiate swing vs long portfolio.
Thanking you in advance.
hmm…? You are clearly mistaken and not by a small margin, but by a mile. If you were to survey 100 people who are using free APIs, over 90% would be using it with an algo trading platform out there giving out readymade algos without being registered as an RIA/RA. And over 90% of them having no programming knowledge.
But I get your point of asking for this to be free and as I mentioned we will take a call when we think is the right time when the regulatory risk is lower.
We are working on seeing if there is a way to allow a customer secondary demat account where long-term holdings can be moved. So this not only helps with FIFO issues for taxation but also a way to ringfence an investor from selling long-term holdings in a hurry.
The margin calculator is updated with the latest SPAN files from today.
So you can simulate your position on this to figure out what will be the latest margin requirement as per the latest SPAN file. On Kite the margins blocked will remain as per the beginning of the day file as the new regulations block margin as per that.
I dont want to be pushy, but whats your opinion on providing free readonly access to historical data for at least index options via API ? I see very low risk from a regulation point of view…
I guess companies without revenue targets go the farthest trying to make revenues.
@nithin would seek your regulatory foresight on the delayed payment charges on account of eod margin shortfall (and not because of less than 50% margin coming from cash equivalent, please note) - in cases where the first communication from zerodha on the shortfall in the form of margin calls is arriving the next day? And how comfortable are you charging this?
Ticket #20230907761453 for reference (yesterday’s conversation)
a) Main thing being that weekly options aren’t there in the calculator, and since there’s a difference in margin between the weekly & monthly options, so only for the last expiry of the month, this would work.
b) Am pretty sure the Mid Cap options don’t get updated on the calculator (intraday). Have noticed that even on Kite, the Mid Cap margins aren’t updated after EOD which is not the case with others (Nifty, FinNifty, Banknifty). @Ananth or someone else can correct me on this if am wrong here.
@nithin When you are at it can you please ask your team to enable the stick order window for pop out charts (in TV) as well? It’s been almost a year since @MohammedFaisal said we’ll get this updated but still it’s nowhere to be seen.
a) We are working on adding weekly options on web margin calcy.
b) We upload only BOD SPAN for all contracts on Kite Funds page (at RMS level), Order window and on Basket due to margin shortfall penalty is charged based on BOD file and any reduction in intraday SPAN margin compare to BOD Span would result in margin penalty. So we have started uploading intraday SPAN only in web margin calcy for trader to maintain sufficient margin for next day specifically for overnight carried positions. There shouldn’t be any difference between contracts since SPAN file contain all contracts but will cross check at our end and update here if there is any discrepancies and rectify if required.
